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<  Loco Locals  ~  What I learned from being in Student Film

Is this B.S.?

yes  
14%
  [ 3 ]  14%
 
no  
57%
  [ 12 ]  57%
 
yes, but Justin Rice is still an ass  
28%
  [ 6 ]  28%
 

Total Votes : 21
dwhitfield
Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:30 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 16 Jul 2008 Posts: 89 Location: ok
Carcass, if You Really Knew Where I was Taking You, You Would Tremble

As of September 2008, Student Film will crawl back into the rat hole the we came from, where we shall hibernate for a season. This fact has made me reminisce, maybe too much. This wasn't the first or only band for any of us, but it was the best.

We are in the sixth year of Student Film. Like most bands, we were initially outsiders - not part of the artsy OKC elite. We couldn't even pay anyone to let us play their venue (we actually tried). We used to say things to each other like, "if we could just get a show with Little League Hero, 20 Minutes to Vegas, Ambassador Bill, or The Fellowship Students…" We looked up to these bands, not just because they made cool music, but because they were a symbol of what OKC thought it would become: the Great Promise, the next Great Scene. OKC would be the next Seattle, Austin, or even Omaha. This was and remains nothing more than an illusion.

The aforementioned bands eventually moved on. But not before we were lucky enough to connect with each of them (Student Film/20 Minutes or LLH shows became common). We even collaborated and became friends with a few of the members. Show attendance was high. New bands were constantly forming. Everyone's CD's were well-received. Things were looking up.

But there was a warning given by each Mother Band to us: "Be careful, you will wear out the OKC audience. You will be loved quickly, but forgotten quicker." Sure, sure, whatever.

However, just a few years later, I severely wish we would have heeded the warning. For we did indeed, wear out the OKC audience (as well as the Normanites). We did not reach the status of "seen better days" as quickly as some other bands. We tried to avoid it, but only delayed it: we played regionally and went on several small tours, but the vast majority of our shows were local. And naturally, people can only stand to see your band so many times. We were even looked at by Sony (as was Cheyenne) and other labels, though that eventually turned into nothing.

OKC is not and will never be the next Great Scene. And why would we be? Corporate backing seems to deem scenes as scenes, not raw talent. OK is oil country - not indie rock paradise. I have grown tired of being told over and over by burnt out 40-year-old Gen Xer's that if we had just toured more, we would have "made it." This is logically equivalent to saying, "if you work hard, you will get ahead." Really? You promise? Both claims are silly because both claims come with no guarantee, although they pretend to. They really refer to probability, and probability is not the same thing as certainty. Even then, these claims do not give us any specific degree of probability. Take for instance, El Paso Hot Button. It would be difficult to find a Rock 'n Roll act from OKC that has worked harder than Mickey. He is almost always out on the road, and he puts out more material than Moses did. But he hasn't "made it." Maybe he will very soon (I can only hope that this becomes the case). But to further my point, consider two bands, Star Death and White Dwarves and Colour Music. Intending no personal offense to the individuals that comprise such acts, I must say it: they and their success are the products of privilege. Their music is inferior to the majority of OKC (and yes, even Norman) bands, but they are sanctioned by World's Fair, the enemy of the Great Promise.

When OKC bands got word that World's Fair was in town, we got excited. It was the Christ child of OK. The Hex famously set up their gear in the World's fair parking lot and played a set for Lord Booker. But to no avail. OKC bands, listen to what I'm telling you now: World's Fair is not here to help out the OKC arts scene. Can we blame them? The music industry is tanking right before our eyes and we were all foolish enough to think that World's Fair would gamble on a bunch of fellow Okies? Make no mistake about it, World's Fair is Establishment, 100%. Let them do their thing and quit bothering them with your brilliant demos. Life is too short and Establishment only has time for the things that generate profit, which good art rarely does. Whether or not your band makes it is solely a matter of luck. Can anyone really deny this?

But I would hate to sound jaded, bitter, whiney, etc. There are those who are glad to hear when any OK band makes it. I just happen to not be one of those folks. For instance, I think Hinder and the All American Rejects are nothing more than products that the Establishment allowed to "make it" for no other reason than to fatten the wallets of a few corporate hacks (before the industry officially goes down in flames). Am I supposed to be happy for these OK bands? Do I need to be happy for Toby Keith when he makes a little cash off singing about shoving boots up people's asses, just because he's from OK? Did I miss a meeting, or does this issue go beyond mere taste and preference? Maybe not, I'm happy that Starlight Mints and The Evangelicals have experienced success.

My only intent here is to pass on the word from the Mother Bands. Do not let this warning fall upon deaf ears! OKC artists, do not anticipate prosperity. Only fools expect to flourish. So then, what is an OKC band to do? I will repeat the old cliché: "ART FOR ART'S SAKE!" Create, press on, play a ton of shows, wear out your audience if you must, write what comes naturally with no pretensions, record as many songs as you can, run up ridiculous band tabs at shows, tip your bartender, don't piss off the sound man, and most of all, ENJOY IT!

Word Happenings,
Justin Rice


Last edited by dwhitfield on Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:25 pm; edited 3 times in total
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bigfoot
Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:37 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 25 Jan 2008 Posts: 15
this is beautiful.


Last edited by bigfoot on Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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NLP
Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:03 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 07 Feb 2008 Posts: 152
But to further my point, consider two bands, Star Death and White Dwarves and Colour Music. Intending no personal offense to the individuals that comprise such acts, I must say it: they and their success are the products of privilege. Their music is inferior to the majority of OKC (and yes, even Norman) bands, but they are sanctioned by World's Fair, the enemy of the Great Promise.

When OKC bands got word that World's Fair was in town, we got excited. It was the Christ child of OK. The Hex famously set up their gear in the World's fair parking lot and played a set for Lord Booker. But to no avail. OKC bands, listen to what I'm telling you now: World's Fair is not here to help out the OKC arts scene. Can we blame them? The music industry is tanking right before our eyes and we were all foolish enough to think that World's Fair would gamble on a bunch of fellow Okies? Make no mistake about it, World's Fair is Establishment, 100%. Let them do their thing and quit bothering them with your brilliant demos. Life is too short and Establishment only has time for the things that generate profit, which good art rarely does. Whether or not your band makes it is solely a matter of luck. Can anyone really deny this?


I'm glad you wrote this. Well said.
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Chris
Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:49 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 17 Jan 2007 Posts: 2030 Location: Norman
dwhitfield wrote:
Carcass, if You Really Knew Where I was Taking You, You Would Tremble

As of September 2008, Student Film will crawl back into the rat hole the we came from, where we shall hibernate for a season. This fact has made me reminisce, maybe too much. This wasn't the first or only band for any of us, but it was the best.

We are in the sixth year of Student Film. Like most bands, we were initially outsiders - not part of the artsy OKC elite. We couldn't even pay anyone to let us play their venue (we actually tried). We used to say things to each other like, "if we could just get a show with Little League Hero, 20 Minutes to Vegas, Ambassador Bill, or The Fellowship Students…" We looked up to these bands, not just because they made cool music, but because they were a symbol of what OKC thought it would become: the Great Promise, the next Great Scene. OKC would be the next Seattle, Austin, or even Omaha. This was and remains nothing more than an illusion.


I agree... but, this shouldn't diminish what we do have here. we do have a pretty nice number of quality bands and the art/music scene in general is pretty tight.

justin wrote:
The aforementioned bands eventually moved on. But not before we were lucky enough to connect with each of them (Student Film/20 Minutes or LLH shows became common). We even collaborated and became friends with a few of the members. Show attendance was high. New bands were constantly forming. Everyone's CD's were well-received. Things were looking up.
But there was a warning given by each Mother Band to us: "Be careful, you will wear out the OKC audience. You will be loved quickly, but forgotten quicker." Sure, sure, whatever.

However, just a few years later, I severely wish we would have heeded the warning. For we did indeed, wear out the OKC audience (as well as the Normanites). We did not reach the status of "seen better days" as quickly as some other bands. We tried to avoid it, but only delayed it: we played regionally and went on several small tours, but the vast majority of our shows were local. And naturally, people can only stand to see your band so many times. We were even looked at by Sony (as was Cheyenne) and other labels, though that eventually turned into nothing. OKC is not and will never be the next Great Scene. And why would we be? Corporate backing seems to deem scenes as scenes, not raw talent. OK is oil country - not indie rock paradise.


ahhh... but, it really is an indie rock paradise! I mean, who really needs the stresses that come from unrealistic expectations? I think that I'm reading that as part of what you're talking about. We have a place where we can afford to live and where we're inspired by our peers to do something awesome. I really wouldn't want this to become the next seattle or austin or pdx. Those are all really cool cities. But, I think that I'd much rather be a music fan in one of those cities than a musician.

And, don't feel bad about "wearing out the scene"... I, personally, am really glad to have seen you guys as many times as I have and I appreciate all of those fun times. It's really not worth it to carry around any regrets. I don't think that playing less frequently would have made a lot of difference.

justin wrote:
I have grown tired of being told over and over by burnt out 40-year-old Gen Xer's that if we just toured more, we would have "made it." This is logically equivalent to saying, "if you work hard, you will get ahead." Really? You promise? Both claims are silly because both claims come with no guarantee, although they pretend to. They really refer to probability, and probability is not the same thing as certainty.


I hear the same thing about you guys all the time. But, honestly, these people aren't just assholes trying to make you feel bad. They came up during a time where you really could make a huge difference by touring. And, I'm assuming that most of them just really, really like you and wish that you'd have had more success. They probably don't realize how offensive it is for them to suggest that if you'd have just tried harder, things would have worked out better.

justin wrote:
Even then, these claims do not give us any specific degree of probability. Take for instance, El Paso Hot Button. It would be difficult to find a Rock 'n Roll act from OKC that has worked harder than Mickey. He is almost always out on the road, and he puts out more material than Moses did. But he hasn't "made it." Maybe he will very soon (I can only hope that this becomes the case).


This gets to expectations. I think that Mickey feels like he's "made it" in the way that he personally defines "making it".. He's opened for some great bands. He made friends with Quintron. He's toured a lot. Mickey's one of the more grounded guys that I've known. He's never really bought into any of the bullshit that so many bands wrap themselves up in. As much as it kills me to admit this, he is a really great example for other bands.

justin wrote:
But to further my point, consider two bands, Star Death and White Dwarves and Colour Music. Intending no personal offense to the individuals that comprise such acts, I must say it: they and their success are the products of privilege. Their music is inferior to the majority of OKC (and yes, even Norman) bands, but they are sanctioned by World's Fair, the enemy of the Great Promise.

When OKC bands got word that World's Fair was in town, we got excited. It was the Christ child of OK. The Hex famously set up their gear in the World's fair parking lot and played a set for Lord Booker. But to no avail. OKC bands, listen to what I'm telling you now: World's Fair is not here to help out the OKC arts scene. Can we blame them? The music industry is tanking right before our eyes and we were all foolish enough to think that World's Fair would gamble on a bunch of fellow Okies? Make no mistake about it, World's Fair is Establishment, 100%. Let them do their thing and quit bothering them with your brilliant demos. Life is too short and Establishment only has time for the things that generate profit, which good art rarely does. Whether or not your band makes it is solely a matter of luck. Can anyone really deny this?


nope. it's a fact. waaay more bands are successful because they had some luck than because they are just really talented. I like all the guys in Stardeath and Colourmusic. Neither are my favorite of local bands. But, I think that either of them are probably better than most of what Warner has put out in the last few years. But, both of them are pretty good examples of what you're talking about from a couple of different perspectives. Relating to luck, obviously Stardeath was never really a local bands. I mean, how many shows did they even play before they were opening big shows for Flaming Lips? I think that they're much better than most of the garbage on the radio. But, they had just enough luck to get signed to a major label. The question now is, will they have enough luck to be marketed by the label. As jealous as I am of their luck, I know that they're good guys and I hope that everything works out for them.

As far as World's Fair goes, I think that you're dead on. I appreciate that they have actually helped a few local bands besides Stardeath and Colourmusic. That's great. But, the idea that so many local bands see them as their one chance to get a foot in the door somewhere, is just sad and wrong. If they had as much pull as some local people give them credit for, then Evangelicals and Student Film would both be where Stardeath is right now. In fact, if you look at the Colourmusic/Stardeath situations, it seems that Scott Booker isn't the one up there who actually has the pull anyway. I'd probably rather pass a cd on to Wayne than to Scott.

I'll cop to being really excited when I read that first gazette article about worlds fair. I really believed that they meant what they said about doing something positive for the scene. But, I just don't think that it ever panned out like it was promised. That was a few years ago and as far as I know, the label that he said that he'd be using to release local bands' records isn't even really off the ground.

I went to them for help with the Subatomic Pieces record. Scott told me that if I got them some cds and a list of labels, that they'd send them out for me. I made about 70 cds (pre release) and put together a list of labels and addresses. They basically sat on that shit for a few months and never did anything. At some point, I felt really silly for sitting around waiting on someone who obviously didn't care about helping me. So, I just put the record out and moved on. Now, I understand that it's quite possible that Scott just didn't like the record and didn't want to put his name behind it. But, the least he could have done is be honest and respectful about it, and tell me.

justin wrote:
But I would hate to sound jaded, bitter, whiney, etc. There are those who are glad to hear when any OK band makes it. I just happen to not be one of those folks. For instance, I think Hinder and the All American Rejects are nothing more than products that the Establishment that have been allowed to "make it" for no other reason than to fatten the wallets of a few corporate hacks (before the industry officially goes down in flames). Am I supposed to be happy for these OK bands? Do I need to be happy for Toby Keith when he makes a little cash off singing about shoving boots up people's asses, just because he's from OK? Did I miss a meeting, or does this issue go beyond mere taste and preference? Maybe not, I'm happy that Starlight Mints and The Evangelicals have experienced success.


I'm glad to hear when any band or person "makes it" according to their own idea of what "making it" means. I just get frustrated when people expect that everyone has the same definition of "making it".

justin wrote:
My only intent here is to pass on the word from the Mother Bands. Do not let this warning fall upon deaf ears! OKC artists, do not anticipate prosperity. Only fools expect to flourish. So then, what is an OKC band to do? I will repeat the old cliché: "ART FOR ART'S SAKE!" Create, press on, play a ton of shows, wear out your audience if you must, write what comes naturally with no pretensions, record as many songs as you can, run up ridiculous band tabs at shows, tip your bartender, don't piss off the sound man, and most of all, ENJOY IT!

Word Happenings,
Justin Rice


Awesome. You may have just made yourself a local hero!
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Baby Crenshaw
Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:20 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 18 Jan 2007 Posts: 463 Location: Norman
Chris wrote:


Awesome. You may have just made yourself a local hero!


For the record, Justin was already confirmed to open my movie premiere in September with a solo acoustic set before this post made him a local hero.

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Chris
Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:25 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 17 Jan 2007 Posts: 2030 Location: Norman
you're way ahead of the curve on lots of things, mickey.
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Free White and Twenty-one
Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:50 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 17 Jan 2007 Posts: 881 Location: They seek him here, they seek him there...
OK, I'm gonna be the asshole and tell you to get over yourself. The thing about your post is that most musicians would read it, nod there heads and say, "you said it, brother" while everyone smart enough to never pick up an instrument would just say "No shit! It took you 6 years to figure that out?"

It seems to me that musicians have three schools of thought when it comes to view the music business.
1. The Meritocracy: That the best really do rise to the top. eventually.
2. The Crap Shoot: That there is no rhyme or reason whatsoever as to who makes it and who doesn't. So as long as you're better than the worst band being played on the radio, keep at it and who knows?
3. The Conspiracy: That the music industry is hellbent on ramming shitty music down everyone's throat and there is a virtual conspiracy to supress "good music" (as defined by the person whining).

While there are probably slivers of truth in each, I consider the conspiratorial angle to be the weakest. IMO, if you don't make it, its cause you're not making music people want to hear.
(either that or because you're not a person any 15 year old would want to put on their bedroom wall. Seriously, a lot of musicians need to take a look in the mirror and ask "What 15 year old would want to put a picture of me on their bedroom wall" I digress)
Take each of the most recent OKC success stories. Colormusic, Evangelicals, Star Death, AAR, Uglysuit, hell even Hinder. They each have a few things in common. First, none of them were huge draws before getting signed. Second, none of them were voracious tourers. Third, they all got signed within 2 years of playing their first shows.*
All of the above makes me inclined to believe that making music people want to hear is the real key to success. That and being a person a 15 year old would want to put on their bedroom wall.
The world makes more sense than you give it credit for. Take Hinder and AAR. They're easy targets. We can all sit here and say "Hinder or AAR got signed and Student Film (a better band) didnt" Rather than look at like think, think about it like this. Was Hinder better than every other active rock band in OKC. Yeah, probably. Were AAR the best pop/punk band. Again, probably. Put in these terms, the perceived injustices start to make a lot more sense.
My problem with your post is not so much complaining that you were not more successful but the unstated assumption that your band DESERVES, nay, IS ENTITLED to be more successful than they are. Says who?
There comes a time in every musicians life where they must come to grips with a sickening realization: "maybe I'm not good enough". Failing this, one must take comfort that staying true to one's artistic vision was worth it.

This is how I feel at the moment. Come 11 tonight, I will be drunk and sobbing "we coulda been the next ICP!!!!"

* If Stock Market Crash makes good, they'd be the exception to all three

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“I'm perfect! But nobody in this shithole gets me, because I don't put out!"
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Brewcaster
Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:22 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 18 Jan 2007 Posts: 562 Location: Portland, OR
Wow, you just made me miss Oklahoma. Well more specifically YOU and SF.

Great stuff here. Travis also speaks some truth. I like the Make art for art. Just don't count on it to pay off debts.

You guys need to come out and visit me in Portland, with or without instruments. I will buy you a beer and show you what real smoke is.

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dwhitfield
Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:50 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 16 Jul 2008 Posts: 89 Location: ok
I'm going to be the asshole and point out your errors in reasoning...

Quote:
The world makes more sense than you give it credit for. Take Hinder and AAR. They're easy targets. We can all sit here and say "Hinder or AAR got signed and Student Film (a better band) didnt" Rather than look at like think, think about it like this. Was Hinder better than every other active rock band in OKC. Yeah, probably. Were AAR the best pop/punk band. Again, probably. Put in these terms, the perceived injustices start to make a lot more sense.

For starters, it's hard to see what your real point is. The world makes more sense than I give it credit for? What the hell does that mean? Why would I need to think that Hinder was better than every other local rock band? Or AAR?

By the way, the Evangelicals did have great draws before they were signed.

Nowhere in my post was it implicit that I thought Student Film either deserved or was entitled to anything. But It's a fool that looks for logic in a Marie Prevost's Dog post. You restated my point several times. Thus, I can only conclude that you did not understand me, or maybe I was unclear. But I doubt that. A good example is your last line:

Quote:
Failing this, one must take comfort that staying true to one's artistic vision was worth it.


That was a nice reformulation of my closing statements.

Best,
Justin Rice
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Free White and Twenty-one
Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:15 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 17 Jan 2007 Posts: 881 Location: They seek him here, they seek him there...
dwhitfield wrote:

Nowhere in my post was it implicit that I thought Student Film either deserved or was entitled to anything.


Without that premise, your post has no purpose. There is no tragedy to be discussed. Without that premise, there is no injustice to be railed against. Without that premise, there is nothing particularly "wrong" with The Establishment you rail against.

dwhitfield wrote:

By the way, the Evangelicals did have great draws before they were signed.


Their draws were OK. Not great. And don't get me wrong, I would let Josh Jones fuck my little sister.

dwhitfield wrote:

For starters, it's hard to see what your real point is. The world makes more sense than I give it credit for? What the hell does that mean? Why would I need to think that Hinder was better than every other local rock band? Or AAR?

You're the one that brought them up. When you say things like this...
dwhitfield wrote:

For instance, I think Hinder and the All American Rejects are nothing more than products that the Establishment that have been allowed to "make it" for no other reason than to fatten the wallets of a few corporate hacks (before the industry officially goes down in flames).

.. what you don't address is WHY. Why them??? Of ALLLLLLLLLLLLL the bands in the universe, why them? There is a reason. There is sense to it. More than you give the world credit for.

IMO, any music that sells is good. In some way shape or form, it is good. It may not be good in the way that you want music to be good but it isn't total dogshit (dispite what I say whilst drunk). I certainly don't buy into the line of thinking of "Our music is so good that no one will buy it."

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“I'm perfect! But nobody in this shithole gets me, because I don't put out!"
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dwhitfield
Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:24 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 16 Jul 2008 Posts: 89 Location: ok
Quote:
Without that premise, your post has no purpose. There is no tragedy to be discussed. Without that premise, there is no injustice to be railed against. Without that premise, there is nothing particularly "wrong" with The Establishment you rail against.



What the fuck is this, really? I had more than one premise, the most fundamental of which was that OK bands should not expect any level of success. Pretty straightforward stuff.

Quote:
. what you don't address is WHY. Why them??? Of ALLLLLLLLLLLLL the bands in the universe, why them? There is a reason.


Uhhh... yes I did.

Quote:
IMO, any music that sells is good. In some way shape or form, it is good. It may not be good in the way that you want music to be good but it isn't total dogshit


Wow. Is this Travis from the DDC? I hope so, because that would lead me to believe that you are completely fucking with me. (That would also make me think back to the good 'ol days, when you were just a wee slam poet). Maybe you shouldn't type whilst drink.

Good Day Sir,
Justin Rice
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Free White and Twenty-one
Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:37 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 17 Jan 2007 Posts: 881 Location: They seek him here, they seek him there...
His name is my name too...

Full disclosure: At any given point in time, I only believe 35% of what I say.I only believe.

But still, it's been a long time since I have quoted from the greatest, most marvelopus piece of literature on music, KLF's The Manual: HOW TO HAVE A NUMBER ONE THE EASY WAY.

Quote:
Up until now you might have felt these chapters have been riddled with cynicism.

Cynicism is a terrible, disfiguring character trait if used by the
individual who is forced to carry a bitter chip. He will use his
cynicism to cope with the weight of life and all its trials. But
cynicism harnessed to your advantage can help debunk fraudulent
mysteries that prevent us from sharing in what is possible and what is
ours. At all times cynicism must be balanced with a belief and faith
in the intrinsic goodness of our fellow man. Nobody really wants to be
bad, even when they are pulling the trigger or handing out the towels
for the non existent showers.


The Manual must be read by all. It is truth. It is gospel. Yes, I am drunk!

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-Travis: Artist, Poet, Gentleman of Leisure.
“I'm perfect! But nobody in this shithole gets me, because I don't put out!"
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Chris
Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:04 am Reply with quote
Joined: 17 Jan 2007 Posts: 2030 Location: Norman
I think that if you were both drinking in a bar together, that you'd probably be handing out very similar advice.

I don't get the feeling that Justin's post had anything at all to do with any feeling of entitlement on his or Student Film's part. I think that it's just the opposite, really. I read his post more as an attempt to warn young bands against feeling entitled to anything. He's highlighting the colossal waste of time it is to wait around for other people to "help you", when you could be out there helping yourself. He seems to be stating that expectations aren't what Student Film has ever been about.

Justin seems to have drawn a line in the sand between bands who make music because they love making music and bands that will "do anything for success".... I really appreciate this. I don't necessarily share his disdain for the bands who want to "make it" at any cost. But, I do think that the idea that these two different types of bands exist is something that deserves mention. I think that too often, people look at musicians as if every single one of them secretly wants to be a pop star, regardless of what they say.

I get the feeling that it was other forces, outside of the band, that feel like Student Film was somehow short-changed. Other people placed expectations on the band that may or may not have even been what the band wanted.

I see Justin's post as a warning to bands.

Unless you're one of those people who will do anything for success (Hynder), then you should be prepared for failure, regardless of how many people tell you that you're great. Unless you're willing to kiss a TON of ass and make lots of compromises to your own vision, you're gonna have to have a certain amount of luck if you ever plan to "make it" on a national level. I know for a fact that there are bands out there who are compromising their own musical vision trying to make something that they think that Scott Booker will get behind. Maybe, just maybe, these bands would be better off and would have a more fulfilling existence if they made music for themselves, rather than some imaginary local power broker.

There are a lot of different paths in this music "business". I think that Justin is encouraging local bands to explore more than one of them.
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killcityusa
Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:49 pm Reply with quote
Moderator Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 195
This must be where my band went horribly wrong...
dwhitfield wrote:
don't piss off the sound man

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kidsoftrock
Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:49 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 13 Mar 2007 Posts: 7
Chris wrote:

Even if you're willing to kiss a TON of ass and make lots of compromises to your own vision then you're still gonna have to have a certain amount of luck if you ever plan to "make it" on a national level.


That's how I'd re-write that sentence. IMO - The ones that compromise still need quite a bit of luck. The ones that don't usually need a TON.
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quentin
Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:49 pm Reply with quote
Moderator Joined: 17 Jan 2007 Posts: 962 Location: norman, ok
dwhitfield wrote:

I have grown tired of being told over and over by burnt out 40-year-old Gen Xer's that if we just toured more, we would have "made it."


Justin, I hope I didn't say anything along these lines the other night at the July 5th party we both attended. I have to confess to having that thought pass through my gen-x brain from time to time, and I was waaaay drunk enough that night so say anything I've ever thought, and maybe even some things I haven't! In any case, if I did - I apologize. Also, if I did - it's just because I think you guys would find big fans in any location. You've always been one of my favorite locals.

In looking at what you guys have, rather than what you don't... it's a lot. You write great songs, and perform them with honesty and fire. Your music is accesible, some of it immediately, but it's also not without depth and quirkiness; which keeps it interesting longer term. You're a group of truly nice dudes, with a solid core and long term artistic compatibility. You do have that one position that comes and goes, however the versions both with and without work well. You also have a nice local label to work with, which I see as infinitely valuable. Little Mafia may not be Sony, but IMO it has real indie cred upside. That's worth a lot. And FWIW, you guys are all good looking enough to grace a poster. Yes. Even Eric and Sethy. (joke)

This is all more than most bands have. My own most recent band had a good run in this region, and even a bit beyond. But we never had a solid performing core of fully like minded individuals like you guys do. There was always that missing match on drums. I was also continually driven crazy due to the fact that I'm an unapologetic optomist, and NONE of the bandmates I had fell into that category. In fact, there was so much negativity at times it's shocking to me that we did anything at all. IMO we are the most underachieving Gazette best band winner of all time, and certainly the most stupid local story ever - taking 2 years to make an album that I was really and truly proud of, then shit canning the band without so much as a CD release. I'll never live long enough for that to sit well with me - especially considering some of the things I had to turn down over the following 6 months.

So, count your blessings.

Your warnings and observations are wise, but at the same time your cupboard is far from bare. You may never sign to a big label, and turn music into your true vocation. But if you release a batch of CDs on Little Mafia, you'll at least leave a satisfying personal legacy to enjoy for the rest of your days. It's also worth mentioning that once in a while a legacy underground band pops above the water, especially in the indie world. That possibility is not worth betting on, of course, but it's also always out there.

-----

Comment on the conversation as it evolved down the thread. IMO, 90% of success in the music business is song writing. There are many examples of ugly bands, shitty playing bands, bands that won't tour, bands that are too old, or bands with any other sort of handicap -- but they are also bands that somehow make it, or at least make an impact of some sort, because their song writing is so fucking good it just has to happen. The last 10% will determine if they are 15 year old's posters bands, or something way less. But the song writing is the deal breaker.

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Free White and Twenty-one
Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:59 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 17 Jan 2007 Posts: 881 Location: They seek him here, they seek him there...
quentin wrote:
I'll never live long enough for that to sit well with me - especially considering some of the things I had to turn down over the following 6 months.


Oh man you set yourself up for a hilarious crack about your age. I thought about making one something along the lines of how you were only a few months away from life expectancy anyway but was like, "ehh... too easy..."

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quentin
Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:02 pm Reply with quote
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Marie Prevost's Dog wrote:
quentin wrote:
I'll never live long enough for that to sit well with me - especially considering some of the things I had to turn down over the following 6 months.


Oh man you set yourself up for a hilarious crack about your age. I thought about making one something along the lines of how you were only a few months away from life expectancy anyway but was like, "ehh... too easy..."


Thought about making one? I think you just did! False cover, Marie Prevost's Dog!

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Free White and Twenty-one
Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:33 pm Reply with quote
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Seriously though. If I ever had children (God, help us all), I would never let them take up music. Maybe some piano lessons just for discipline. But I would rather catch my kid smoking pot than playing a guitar.
Cause when you play music, you end up making a ton of foolish life decisions based on the fact that you play music. How many people on this board are driving huge gas-guzzling SUV's because they need something to haul all their equipment in? Or got a smaller apartment so they can afford their rehearsal room? Or refuse a job that conflicted with band duties? Or dropped out of college to pursue music.
We can talk about making art and whatnot. But let's not kid ourselves here. Being in a band dramatically improves your social standing (and by extension your sex life). No one can convince this is not a factor for them. It's way too expensive of a hobby for it not to be.

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dwhitfield
Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:44 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 16 Jul 2008 Posts: 89 Location: ok
Something we can agree on:

Quote:
Cause when you play music, you end up making a ton of foolish life decisions based on the fact that you play music. How many people on this board are driving huge gas-guzzling SUV's because they need something to haul all their equipment in? Or got a smaller apartment so they can afford their rehearsal room? Or refuse a job that conflicted with band duties? Or dropped out of college to pursue music.


Guilty.
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